Very good post, Afro88. A lot of truth in that. Seeking intoxication, whether drugs or alcohol or other, when you're not in the right state of mind often (though not always) leads to problems of some manner or other.



For me, the responsibilities and schedule I keep are very much part of what keeps me grounded. I like to work hard and play hard, but ultimately, the things I need to do have to come before the things I want to do. It's therefore imperative to stay out of compromising situations and know when to say no.

mX. Escribi�:

I have never done drugs (someday probably but I don�t feel the necessity right now) , so I�m not sure what to say

but I remember a few months back you said you didnt need them.



what changed your perspective? :?

I dont really get youre post to be honest.

I never said i didnt need drugs but no , i dont. Obviously. I never used much drugs , or often. In fact , ive only done very little. I really dont get youre question.



And thanks for the replies people! Afro , thnaks for the mature and intelligent complinet. Means a lot ;)

Jeanie Escribi�:

"Long scary post"

dude, don't blame the drugs, never, blame the drugs.



Besides, what happened to you happend way too long after you did the drugs. There's no way that was the drugs fault.



You may be completely insane, or your room might really be haunted, but the drugs are innocent.

Jeanie Escribi�:

mX. Escribi�:

I have never done drugs (someday probably but I don�t feel the necessity right now) , so I�m not sure what to say

but I remember a few months back you said you didnt need them.



what changed your perspective? :?

I dont really get youre post to be honest.

I never said i didnt need drugs but no , i dont. Obviously. I never used much drugs , or often. In fact , ive only done very little. I really dont get youre question.



And thanks for the replies people! Afro , thnaks for the mature and intelligent complinet. Means a lot ;)

:-// sorry.



Why you start taking them?

toomuch'stash Escribi�:

Jeanie Escribi�:

"Long scary post"

dude, don't blame the drugs, never, blame the drugs.



Besides, what happened to you happend way too long after you did the drugs. There's no way that was the drugs fault.



You may be completely insane, or your room might really be haunted, but the drugs are innocent.

That's just not true though, is it? The after effects of E go on for days, and it's only the sucky effects that hang about.

Not trying to take away from your experience Jeanie, I totally hear what you were saying. And it's cool that you've been able to take something positive from it, many wouldn't have and would have shrugged it off only to get in bigger trouble next time.

chemicalfan Escribi�:

toomuch'stash Escribi�:

Jeanie Escribi�:

"Long scary post"

dude, don't blame the drugs, never, blame the drugs.



Besides, what happened to you happend way too long after you did the drugs. There's no way that was the drugs fault.



You may be completely insane, or your room might really be haunted, but the drugs are innocent.

That's just not true though, is it? The after effects of E go on for days, and it's only the sucky effects that hang about.

Not trying to take away from your experience Jeanie, I totally hear what you were saying. And it's cool that you've been able to take something positive from it, many wouldn't have and would have shrugged it off only to get in bigger trouble next time.

Maybe some small, fagged out blue monday effects, but even acid wouldn't be causin full blown visual hallucinations that long after... maybe it was tainted e! it could have been angel dust, that would do it that long after... or mescaline.



god, I want some mescaline.

toomuch'stash Escribi�:

chemicalfan Escribi�:

toomuch'stash Escribi�:

Jeanie Escribi�:

"Long scary post"

dude, don't blame the drugs, never, blame the drugs.



Besides, what happened to you happend way too long after you did the drugs. There's no way that was the drugs fault.



You may be completely insane, or your room might really be haunted, but the drugs are innocent.

That's just not true though, is it? The after effects of E go on for days, and it's only the sucky effects that hang about.

Not trying to take away from your experience Jeanie, I totally hear what you were saying. And it's cool that you've been able to take something positive from it, many wouldn't have and would have shrugged it off only to get in bigger trouble next time.

Maybe some small, fagged out blue monday effects, but even acid wouldn't be causin full blown visual hallucinations that long after... maybe it was tainted e! it could have been angel dust, that would do it that long after... or mescaline.



god, I want some mescaline.

i want to try, is it possible to order off the internet or do i need to get it through my "contacts"

Mx - i hear ya.

Nah , i only did it a couple of times. I like it , yes. I need it , hell no. I decidedto try it out because , well , i'm curious , and i liked it so i did it a couple of times more , but only very little , and never often. I think all togheter i took about 12 pills in my whole life and 2 lines of coke , and thats it.



Stash - i have to disagree with you a 100% here.

Clearly this wouldnt have happend if i would be completely sober.

Maybe on YOU u dont have any after affects , but on me it clearly did. Something like this has never happened to me before , only a similar kind off experience this past NYE. Nothing like this , but i also started to see stuff flying around my room.



The after effects from drugs are different on anybody. I'm not saying its common that people get hallucinations the way i did, but who knows , maybe its a combination of stuff inside my head and the E comedown. Like i said , i have extreme highs , and extreme lows.



It wasn't E btw. They were fucking strong dutch MDMA Crystals. But same thing , kind off. But i can asure you that they were pure MDMA crystals. Nothing else in it. I think the things we know about drugs should be used as guidelines. Everybody can experience something different while being on the same drugs. Offcourse , we all get the happylove feeling on E , but drugs in combiantion with who you are and how you feel make an experience unique.



Whatever it was that happened, it did make me realize i dont ever want that to happen again. Idont think its worth it to feel high for 8 hours and down for 3 days ( Ive felt pretty shitty Sunday and yesterday ). Maybe in a couple of years or something i will do a tiny little bit , but for now....well....no thanks.

Tonight was very nice.



After work, went out for a couple of drinks with a friend because he didn't get a job he was really hoping for. So hard to find jobs for computer engineers here, apparently. So, three of us ended up wandering by the river with 22 beers in backpacks and just shooting the shit. Ended up later back at his place, had some wicked refried beans with habenero sauce (well, I had habenero anyways... super hot but I love it), chilling, listening to tunes, listening to Air (my god is Moon Safari a good album), having a good time reminscing and such. Now I'm at home, eating a ham sandwich with a double vodka and ginger. After 3 AM now and I have class at 10:30 AM which I will attend, I intend. Haven't had a night out wandering and drinking on a weeknight in months and months. Not since about September probably. Not since I've been single anyways. A good, fun night with a couple of the boys. Can't wait until exams are over. A clonnie to enjoy sleep and tomorrow will be a school + work + soccer day.



Oh, and apparently I may be back seeing the girl I was seeing the previous few weeks... we'll see....

It's different for different people Stash, a few of my mates don't feel too bad the next day, but the day after that they're practically suicidal (not quite, but you know what I mean). Some people's brains just can't take that serotonin drain. A good friend of mine had to give up pills because she'd just be in tears a couple of days after, and in the end it just wasn't worth it. But then other mates can smash it and hold down high profile jobs throughout the week. Just depends what your makeup is.



I tend to wig out after just one cone, but give me a few trips and I'm fine... still out of my head, but I don't freak out :? Go figure...

I'm a police officer, and u r arrested, my lady. for taking hard psychedelic drugs.

'stash was kidding, obv. Well, sorta kidding anyways. With him, he's never really serious but never really joking. That's why we get along so well. ;-)



Myself, I'm usually fine the next day, it's the day after I get all emotional and such. I've never had visual manifestations longer than 12 hours after the last dose though.

Jeanie Escribi�:

Mx - i hear ya.

Nah , i only did it a couple of times. I like it , yes. I need it , hell no. I decidedto try it out because , well , i'm curious , and i liked it so i did it a couple of times more , but only very little , and never often. I think all togheter i took about 12 pills in my whole life and 2 lines of coke , and thats it.



Stash - i have to disagree with you a 100% here.

Clearly this wouldnt have happend if i would be completely sober.

Maybe on YOU u dont have any after affects , but on me it clearly did. Something like this has never happened to me before , only a similar kind off experience this past NYE. Nothing like this , but i also started to see stuff flying around my room.



The after effects from drugs are different on anybody. I'm not saying its common that people get hallucinations the way i did, but who knows , maybe its a combination of stuff inside my head and the E comedown. Like i said , i have extreme highs , and extreme lows.



It wasn't E btw. They were fucking strong dutch MDMA Crystals. But same thing , kind off. But i can asure you that they were pure MDMA crystals. Nothing else in it. I think the things we know about drugs should be used as guidelines. Everybody can experience something different while being on the same drugs. Offcourse , we all get the happylove feeling on E , but drugs in combiantion with who you are and how you feel make an experience unique.



Whatever it was that happened, it did make me realize i dont ever want that to happen again. Idont think its worth it to feel high for 8 hours and down for 3 days ( Ive felt pretty shitty Sunday and yesterday ). Maybe in a couple of years or something i will do a tiny little bit , but for now....well....no thanks.

No one should ever take drugs if I'm not there. I help make sure no one else takes too much by consuming all the excess quantities.



and you're right Tim me boyo.



I really do hate it when people blame the poor, innocent drugs tho'... they're like my children.

toomuch'stash Escribi�:

Besides, what happened to you happend way too long after you did the drugs. There's no way that was the drugs fault.

yikes, please, where are the chemists are this board?? somebody fix the lies





and ,has nobody here had sober hallucinations?

first off, no amount of pure MDMA will make you have full blown, "skeleton people in the room with you" hallucinations. It had to be laced with something.



secondly, no amount of MDMA would make you have "skeleton people in the room with you" hallucinations 24 hours after you took it.



I *have* taken more drugs than most of this forum combined, I'm not just talking out my ass.

If I may poke my head in here once more... pure MDMA is not known to cause hallucinations. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's not a normal side effect. The pure stuff, on the rare occasions I've had it (powdered form), produces a much more even keeled high with a mellow come up and relatively easy come down without the drastic, cracked out blue Mondays. I'm prone to being moody too, and given enough partying I have devastating lows so I've had to become aware of my limits. Anyway. If you've taken enough, it is easy to tell the difference between the highs between what's pure and what's manufactured in some kid's basement. Ecstasy in pill form is usually cut with other substances - it is not pure, it is adultered almost always. Combining substances can cause hallucinations, or pills cut with other stuff has been known to cause people to trip out. MDA (which is closely related to MDMA and is often cut with MDMA) *is* known to produce psychedelic effects. Same with MMDE, another substance closely related to MDMA. Darkstar or DJ Dance probably have a more knowledgable grasp of the chemical components/breakdowns in MDMA and their chemical cousins like MDA, MDE, etc..



Anyway - it's not fair to discredit Jeanie's experience and that is not what I'm getting at. Like she stated, each experience is unique to the individual experiencing it. What I am afraid of is she got some bad shit because in all the times I've used ecstasy in any form, and anyone I've known who's a seasoned partier and taken lots more than I have or ever will, has never had the kind of psychdelic reactions with such intensity long after the fact as she did - unless it was laced with something else.



Perhaps some things are better left unsaid. This is Jeanie's experience and hers alone...

I'm probably the closest thing to a chemist on this board, or more accurately, a pharmacologist, since that's the field in question and that's probably a scary thought for many of you who read about my usual idiocy. I've also got a fair bit of hands-on experience with most of the substances commonly discussed on the board, with the exceptions of ket and GHB (though I know a fair bit about both from reading and research).



Speaking from personal experience, I had full-on hallucinations four times while on Ecstasy, all four times it was in pill form (so, obv. contaminated with adulterants, who knows what?), and all four times the visual manifestations only appeared after smoked marijuana concurrently. The hallucinations in the most intense of these experiences were NOT like mushrooms or acid, they were much more "real" seeming, more like what I've read about the deliriants (like belladonna, atropine, dimenhydrinate, or other anticholinergics taken in excessive doses). There was not a real way of distinguishing between illusion and reality as there has been when I've done shrooms or 'cid. What Jeanie described sounds like a more intense version but very similar to what I experienced. Jeanie, from knowing her pretty well, is a more emotional and "volatile" (by that, I mean prone to highs and lows more than most, and she's said as much, and I certainly don't think that's a bad thing) person than I am.



Everyone reacts differently to drugs and psychoactive drugs in particular are very sensitive to set and setting. In the particular case of MDMA, it is not particularly hallucinogenic, at least not as much so as its sister molecule MDA (which is also more toxic). It must be noted, however, that MDA is a metabolite of MDMA, which is to say that some of the MDMA is converted to MDA in the body.



Obviously some of what Jeanie experienced is due to the drugs. I don't think even 'stash in all honesty would deny that. What has me curious is that the "visions" didn't occur until well over 24 hours after coming down off the drug. I can't explain this. In my case, I'd taken 9 or 10 pills over a 8-9 hour stretch (after having drank a fair bit of booze and smoked a bit of pot beforehand) and then smoked pot. Visual abnormalities were beginning to occur before I got stoned (about 3-4 hours after my last pill), but they took on another life once I got high. They finally petered out around 10 hours after my last pill.



To me, the important thing is not whether or not the drugs directly caused Jeanie's experience or not. What's important is the perception towards them Jeanie has acquired as a result. As said above, set and setting are very important in determining the course of a psychoactive experience. If Jeanie, as a result of this incident, feels uncomfortable using drugs (or at least these ones), I would recommend steering clear at least until such time as she feels comfortable with them again, if that ever happens.



Drugs are powerful tools and can be amazingly useful and amazingly dangerous when used without knowledge or forethought. My personal belief is that MDMA (or even the cut to shit E I usually end up doing) is a great drug and that, used in moderation and combined with a well thought out regimen of hydration and antioxidants, can be a relatively safe way of expanding the mind and having a great time. That being said, nobody should get themselves into any experience that they are extremely uncomfortable with and certainly not without doing the research and learning the details.



To blame the drugs alone doesn't really serve any purpose. Neither does absolving them completely. Human beings are complex machines that we don't entirely understand. How we interact with our environments is a subject of great curiosity and import. Jeanie experienced something and learned something as a result. It's valid learning and how she chooses to proceed in the future is her business and I know she's responsible and bright and capable of making her own decisions.

-----------



And, for the record GLAKO, I've had sober hallucinations, though I was suffering from the effects of a concussion and a hangover and sitting in the backseat of my car for 9 hours at the time. I was seeing things on the highway and was becoming delirious, paranoid, and convinced that I was soon going to die. It wasn't fun. I do get periodic visual abnormalities that are transient from time to time, especially in times of exertion. Nothing significant though.



-----------



Oh, and I've currently got a bunch of codeine in the freezer, separating from Aspirin. I'm in a great deal of pain from a very physical soccer game tonight and I'm also wired as hell from victory, exertion, and the usual legal stimulants, so I could use a bit of a comedown fix.



You didn't really think I was going to make such a longwinded post in this thread without indicating I was about to get messed up, did you? ;-)

I cant really reply right now - I will reply at Lunchtime.

Love and hugs!

Okay. I'm back. Wauw , this really resulted in a intresting discussion.



First of all , Whirly and Stash , i can asure you that it WAS pure MDMA. I can swear it to u 100%. How do i know ? I live in Holland. U can easiliy get youre drugs tested here. The guy i had it from is youre age , and has prob as much experience as you guys do , and i trust him with my life.



Second , i'm def not saying anybody is talking out of his ass ebcause u guys def no more about drugs than i do. But i aint talking out of my ass either , i know what i saw, i know how much it scared me , and i know that its not something i want to experience again. Whatever it was , i dont fucking care. For me it was enough to realize that for me , drugs are prob not the best idea.



Dont get me wrong i'm not argue-ing , but



Whirly:

Perhaps some things are better left unsaid. This is Jeanie's experience and hers alone...

No , nothing is better left unsaid. ;) I know very well what i saw and what happened , and whatever the reason was , i know 100% sure that this wouldnt have happened if i wouldve been completey sober all weekend. Just because nobody here has ever heard of anybody who had hallucinations 24 hours after taking the MDMA , doesnt mean it cannot happen. Darkstar made a VERY good point :

Jeanie, from knowing her pretty well, is a more emotional and "volatile" (by that, I mean prone to highs and lows more than most, and she's said as much, and I certainly don't think that's a bad thing) person than I am

I think THIS is what triggered it. I have extreme lows. Thats also one of the reasons why i wont do that anymore , tbh. Anyway , i get extreme highs , but also extreme lows. Maybe that has something to do with it. I am also supersensitve to ANYTHING.



What i also have to say , is that ALL Saturday , the day before it happened , i still felt a little high. I didnt crash until like 8 Pm that evening.



Thnx for that reply btw , Darkstar.



I myself also have another explanation that is a bit more spooky and weird - but i wont bore you guys with that because u will all probably think i am nuts.



My point is - i'm not stupid , i know what i took , and i know very well what happened , and it scared me enough to still have sleepless nights ( yes i do ) and to decide not to do this anymore.



Whatever explanation u guys wanna give to it - fair enough and i respect everybody's views on what happened , and i also agree with you all , but i can't deny what happened , and i believe what happened more than any knowledge anybody has.



I'm really not being upset or anything dont get me wrong , i just wanna make clear that i do agree with all of yah , and i msyelf dont get it , but i know VERY well what happened to me and nobody can deny that.



Thats also why i dont really get the " Some things are better left unsaid ". I mean , what things ? Speak out sister ;)



Hugs

Jeanie Escribi�:

Thats also why i dont really get the " Some things are better left unsaid ". I mean , what things ? Speak out sister ;)



Hugs

It wasn't meant to be directed at you - that comment was directed at my own babble that took up the first half of the post. My experiences don't debunk yours, Jeanie, just as nobody else's experiences debunk mine or yours. Clearly I've already said enough on this as inidicated in my first sentence "if I may poke my head in here once more".