toomuch'stash Escribi�:

Yeah, but, In My Extremely Skewed Opinon, Joy Division were artists, New Order are Pop Musicians.



It's like the differenece between the Brothers and DJ Tiesto.

I see where you're coming from, but I think it IS possible to be a "pop artist" Look at Andy Warhol.



Maybe my opinion is influenced by the fact that pop is now Officially Cool again, but a well-crafted pop-song can be art, even more so if it is subversive in some way. Look at "Billie Jean".



I mean, even those pretentious bastards at Pitchfork Media selected Kelly Clarkson as the #4 single of the past year and picked Annie's "Anniemal" as their top album from 2004.

i was gutted with the pumpkins after mellon collie. i didnt think they made a decent album after that imo :'(



would like to have heard where nirvana went though - not into the electronic period, but i reckon they would have got much more psychedelic with age, u could hear it creeping in in in utero, more squally feedback and spaced out grooves. would have been interesting.

mippio Escribi�:

i was gutted with the pumpkins after mellon collie. i didnt think they made a decent album after that imo :'(



would like to have heard where nirvana went though - not into the electronic period, but i reckon they would have got much more psychedelic with age, u could hear it creeping in in in utero, more squally feedback and spaced out grooves. would have been interesting.

'Adore' is an honest-to-god masterpiece. It gets better every time I listen to it. 'Machina's not great, but it's better than it's frequently rated. They also released a lot of internet-only stuff before breaking up, and there are a few gems in there too. Seriously though, 'Adore' is magnificent; I can't pick b/w it and Mellon Collie.



Psychedelic Nirvana would have been interesting, but it would have been sad to see them decline into popular irrelevance, like Nine Inch Nails.

Yeah, I know, it's just me, and I'm wrong... I'm sure whirly will kick my ass about it later.



It's just to me, and me alone, Joy Division embodies the terrible pain and horror at knowing you live in a universe that doesn't care about you and you will pass into oblivion without ever knowing or touching another soul.



New Order is about doing blow in the restrooms of gay nightclubs.

toomuch'stash Escribi�:

Yeah, I know, it's just me, and I'm wrong... I'm sure whirly will kick my ass about it later.



It's just to me, and me alone, Joy Division embodies the terrible pain and horror at knowing you live in a universe that doesn't care about you and you will pass into oblivion without ever knowing or touching another soul.



New Order is about doing blow in the restrooms of gay nightclubs.

It's not that you're wrong at all, man, but it's that I rate both of those things as very important. I know I need the balance sometimes between painful introspection and outright hedonism. And I make sure I have the tunes for both occasions.



And I think a lot of ppl end up doing blow in the restrooms of gay nightclubs b/c they're too scared to face the fact that they live in a universe that doesn't care about them and will pass into oblivion without ever knowing or touching another soul.

Of course, none of the bands we've mentioned here today come within spitting distance of being as good as Einsterzende Neubaten, so it's all academic anyway :P

toomuch'stash Escribi�:

Of course, none of the bands we've mentioned here today come within spitting distance of being as good as Einsterzende Neubaten, so it's all academic anyway :P

hehehehe



I dunno, I did bring up Michael Jackson. X-D

toomuch'stash Escribi�:

I will now commit chemical brothers sacriliege:



I wish that Ian Curtis had lived and the rest of Joy Division had killed themselves.



there. I said it.

Somewhere, Tom is throwing his arms up in disgust.



And Ed is looking for a chair to break over your back should you ever come within chair throwing distance of him.

whirlygirl Escribi�:

toomuch'stash Escribi�:

I will now commit chemical brothers sacriliege:



I wish that Ian Curtis had lived and the rest of Joy Division had killed themselves.



there. I said it.

Somewhere, Tom is throwing his arms up in disgust.



And Ed is looking for a chair to break over your back should you ever come within chair throwing distance of him.

Someone should then direct Ed to the Music to Fight To thread? X-D



*imagines Ed listening to Block Rockin Beats while beating 'stash to death with a chair* 8O X-D

And as far as Joy Division/New Order goes.



Personally it wasn't until I was a late teen that I started listening to Joy Division (aside from the odd song here and there on the radio) New Order, now that was music I grew up with. Joy Division was before my time no matter how hard I tried at being goth. I'm not going to sit here and proclaim my undying fangirl-ship for both bands but I have tremendous respect for Ian Curtis for what he did and his impact on what was to come music-wise, and moreso for Bernard Sumner not only for what he's accomplished as far as carving out a style and name for himself - but because he's such an amazing influence on my favorite musicians.



Both bands are relevant and I hope always will be, and it boils down to the point of one wouldn't have come without the other - Curtis wouldn't have been able to do it without Bernard, and Bernard might not have been without Curtis in the beginning. This whole talk of Ian Curtis. Sorry to sound so cold but he's been dead now a long time - he's left his mark and that's that, time to let go.

toomuch'stash Escribi�:

sneakerbeater Escribi�:

toomuch'stash Escribi�:

It was ok, but due to record label conflicts, it had to leave out some of the most important Madchester bands, namely Stone Roses, Primal Scream and Inspiral Carpets, who were 100x more important to that scene than the Happy Mondays...

gggrrrr. the mondays were madchester!!!!!

yeah, but in terms of pure musicianship, they weren't even in the same league as the Stone Roses.... the Happy Mondays were barely one step above EMF.

Now that's unfair. You need to take that back before our anniversary on Sunday!!!!!!! muahahaha }:-)



I agree with the Stone Roses bit, but that's a matter of opinion since I prefer their music over the Mondays but that does not make the Mondays any less musicans or any less relevant to being one of the biggest driving forces of the Madchester movement.



Now if you want to diss Jesus Jones, go for it!!

Darkstarexodus Escribi�:

whirlygirl Escribi�:

toomuch'stash Escribi�:

I will now commit chemical brothers sacriliege:



I wish that Ian Curtis had lived and the rest of Joy Division had killed themselves.



there. I said it.

Somewhere, Tom is throwing his arms up in disgust.



And Ed is looking for a chair to break over your back should you ever come within chair throwing distance of him.

Someone should then direct Ed to the Music to Fight To thread? X-D



*imagines Ed listening to Block Rockin Beats while beating 'stash to death with a chair* 8O X-D

No, Temptation would be the battle cry as Ed hoists a chair up over his head, stash on the ground begging for mercy.



The horror.



Should I live to see the day. :(

And it definetly took a bit for Barney to find his own voice. I mean, just look at Everything Gone Green, a very early New Order single, to see how Bernard tried his damndest to write lyrics like Ian Curtis. But it was forced and didn't work very well. And Ceremony, of course, originated as a Joy Division tune.



It took tracks like 'Temptation' for Barney to find his own lyrical style, which is often rather inane and, honestly, teenagerish in a lot of ways. But there are times when he captures the struggles of that age and captures exactly what is going on for me. 'Temptation' and 'True Faith' are but two examples of tunes that have touched me deeply.



A lot of the bands I really like I feel a strong connection to because they hit the hard spots of growing into an adult. That's why I love the Pumpkins' 'Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness" album. It's bloated and pretentious and has its share of filler. But it captures those transformational years SO well. Lyrically, New Order does the same thing for me, in many cases.

Hey darkstar, have you heard "The aeroplane flies high" by the smashing pumpkins? Its a collection of all the mellon collie b-sides and is just as good as mellon collie, if not better.

kingliam Escribi�:

Hey darkstar, have you heard "The aeroplane flies high" by the smashing pumpkins? Its a collection of all the mellon collie b-sides and is just as good as mellon collie, if not better.

Yeah, it's actually sitting on my desk here right in front of me. Just listened through the entire boxset in one sitting a couple of days ago. Absolutely brilliant material, with so many songs that leave my jaw hanging. And a cool box on top of that.



They're definetly a band where the b-sides contain SO many gems. I often think Pisces Iscariot might be my fave Pumpkins album. Some of their pre-Gish songs are pretty ace, too.



I also love the Gravity Demos, which, if you're not familiar with, are (mostly) instrumental demos from the Mellon Collie sessions, incl. a great number of tracks featured in the Pastichio Medley.

Hehe, very familar. I've only just discovered those 1996 live versions of silverfuck which go for like 20+ mins. Amazing!

Aw yes, the infamous Jackboot riff + Over the Rainbow. I wasn't yet a fan when they came here to Winnipeg in 1996, but they actually played The Aeroplane Flies High and closed with a marathon Silverfuck rendition. A buddy of mine now went back then and still lords it over me.



And of course, Silverfuck ended up being the last song at their final show. I really wish that show would get released on DVD. Especially knowing it WAS recorded.



If I didn't desperately need to study now, I'd go throw Vieuphoria in.

24 hour party people is a really enjoyable film about factory records.i really like it and most of the cast are spot on for who there playing.

favourite line in it is tony wilson talking to rob gretton and joy division saying the worse band name he ever heard was barbaus.



we want barbaus

Joslyn Escribi�:

Tyler Escribi�:

Jeanie Escribi�:

My mate Ed and i are going to watch this movie tonight , it's playing for 3 nights in an arthouse kinda theather.



Anybody of you seen it , and what did u think about it ?!



To me it sounds very intresting , some music history !!

Not seen the movie (which actually isn't THAT good, by all accounts) - but been to the Hacienda several times.

How can you say that when you heven't seen the movie?? It isn't that great but is a good funny movie, and I really like the inside look of Factory records

Erm, what do you think the words "by all accounts" mean?

He's Dutch , forgive him ;) English is not our first language!