Hey Boys and Girls.



Watching MTV makes me wondering something that i would like to have youre opinion on....



I guess everybody on this board likes music for what it is. Music. Something that moves you , makes you laugh , makes you cry , has the powe to change youre mood , youre whole day , youre life. Music that can totally suck you into it so that you loose yourself. Music that makes you wonder how somebody could make something that great , that beautiful , that amazing...



However , when i watch MTV or any music channel , i get the impression that people don't appreciate music anymore for what it is. People look at video's because they have hot half naked ( And naked after 12 ! ) girls in it , because it's cool to listen to music that is aggresive and spreads a - imo- wrong message.



It makes me sick to my stomach what crap there is on the Radio and the TV. It seriously makes me sad that i am SUPRISED they play a Jimmy Hendrix video because it's so rare. And yeah offcourse , i'm sure there are people who actually like that and says the same about music i like...... But do they like it for the music or just because they are brainwashed induviduals who are not induviduals anymore but listen to music everybody listens to because that way you belong to something , to a group.



Would like to hear everybody's comments on this!

Jeanie Escribi�:

People look at video's because they have hot half naked ( And naked after 12 ! ) girls in it

What's wrong with that ?



Seriously, when I watch MTV or any music channel, I'm hoping to see a REAL video, a Chris Cunningham or Michel Gondry video for instance... But that barely happen each 32nd of a month

MTV is simply another way of marketing music. I don't think a lot of songs would be as big as they are if they didn't have the image to go along with it.



I don't know if it's fair to accuse people of not appreciating music anymore on account of what's shown on MTV. There are plenty of people that appreciate music that don't fit into MTV's target market. People have been accusing other people of not appreciating music since the days of Elvis Presley and before... The masses didn't understand Jimi Hendrix either when he was making it big. I was glad to be out of Tower if only for the fact I wouldn't have to get in another argument with a coworker about how soulless he thinks electronic music is. And so on. I can say that from the beginning MTV has always caught flak for brainwashing the masses and taking away from the true emotional aspect of what music is supposedly meant to be. But MTV, like music, is what it is - it's a tool that presents a package that caters to primarily the lowest common denominator and target market ages 12 - 24.

There was crap music before MTV, it's not their fault it's popular. It's just radio was doing the brainwashing 30 years ago, it'll be something different in 30 years time. You're always gonna get your crap popular media that caters for the masses with mindless drivel, and you're always gonna have your underground music with its fans praying that it'll break through into the popular front and everyone will like what was underground once.

Jeanie Escribi�:

It makes me sick to my stomach what crap there is on the Radio and the TV. It seriously makes me sad that i am SUPRISED they play a Jimmy Hendrix video because it's so rare. And yeah offcourse , i'm sure there are people who actually like that and says the same about music i like...... But do they like it for the music or just because they are brainwashed induviduals who are not induviduals anymore but listen to music everybody listens to because that way you belong to something , to a group.

If I understood your point correctly you are sad because many people who listen to music don't appreciate just the music but rather the whole (unnecessary) package that accompanies it.



So the question is, are we (the people who like music just for what it is) in any position to judge others? I don't think MTV, its listeners and other package pushers prevent or hinder us from enjoying music like we want to.



Another point might be that it's sad how many people are brainwashed consumers instead of being individuals.



I would extend this into a somewhat philosophical question by claiming that we are all brainwashed. How can you perceive someone by his actions as an individual? We are influenced by many factors throughout our lives and these factors do affect our decisions and actions in complex ways. Individuality lost?

Jeanie Escribi�:

It makes me sick to my stomach what crap there is on the Radio and the TV. It seriously makes me sad that i am SUPRISED they play a Jimmy Hendrix video because it's so rare. And yeah offcourse , i'm sure there are people who actually like that and says the same about music i like...... But do they like it for the music or just because they are brainwashed induviduals who are not induviduals anymore but listen to music everybody listens to because that way you belong to something , to a group.

haha Soundertow's said most of what I was gonna say while I was typing it.



I think it depends on personality. A lot of people aren't interested or opinionated enough on music to like a particular genre, so they go with whatever is fed to them by the media or whatever the people around them like.



Wishout wishing to go down the genre road too much there's a few I don't like but nothing annoys me more than bad dance music. I think the commercial scene is pretty dull at the moment. Its boring seeing old records being rehashed all the time. Can't we do something original?



I'll agree with Jeanie's point about videos, call me a crap excuse for a bloke but I'd rather see one that's really well made and thought out (like the one Ben J mentioned). To me, if a producer has created a really good track he doesn't need to accompany it with a tacky "Call on me" style video.



In the end I always think "Would I want everyone to like the same as me?" and the answer is no. So again it comes down to personality. I think sometimes its best to ignore the media and listen to your own thing (and if you can spread it to a few others, even better ;-) ).

Jeanie Escribi�:

because it's cool to listen to music that is aggresive and spreads a - imo- wrong message.

There's nothing wrong with aggresive music... I listen to old Ministry, NIN, all the old school industrial shit, not to mention old punk, just as often, if not more often, than any other kind of music. I love tom and ed, but for me the Dead Kennedy's will always be > than the Chems.



Sometimes, you need music that's just as pissed off as you are.

Yeah i didn't necsesarily meant aggrasive music. And i also didn't mean just MTV - i meant al music channels. Mtv was just an example. And i also dont really mean music channels , i just mean Music in general.







Some intresting things pointed out though.





Soundertow - Yes "Another point might be that it's sad how many people are brainwashed consumers instead of being individuals." Is more what i meant. Sure , we might ALL be brainwashed induviduals , but how often do you see a 12 year old that likes totally different music than all his friends ? Not that often. I think it's so refreshing when i see a young kid with a pink floyd shirt , just to name something.



I agree that it all comes down to personality. And that , i quote WHirly ' but MTV, like music, is what it is - it's a tool that presents a package that caters to primarily the lowest common denominator and target market ages 12 - 24. "



Unfortunatly this is the way it is. Maybe we are not in position to judge people with other music taste than me. I will never do that and i never judged anybody for the music they like. I'm not acusing people of not appreciating music of what's show on MTV. Forget the whole mtv thing for all i care - MTV was just an example.



My point is , how many people are there left out there that can be carried away by music the way i can.I'm sure there's plenty , but i'm just sad there's an even bigger group that listens to. music for different reason. Reason i personaly don't understand.



And again , too make myself clear , there is nothing wrong with liking music i dont like. With liking music i think is fucking bad or whatever whatever. Or too like music because they have boucing cars in their video's and they make you feel cool cause they rap about ho's and pimps and what not.



( And if you people would live in Holland and see dutch rappers from 14 with naked girls in their video's you would understand my point in a second :P )



But i def agree with most of youre points here.

I should choose my words better.

50 cent is da bomb yo

Jeanie, I see what you mean - you have chosen your words well. This is a multi-faceted topic, it covers a broad range of conversational possibilities. It is actually a really good topic and so far we've got really good responses/perspectives. So no worries! :)



I will touch on MTV again, just because I didn't have enough time to finish writing a long drawn out novel before I left for work this morning. I remember when MTV went on the air (yes, it was back in a time when dinosaurs roamed the earth) and the first viddy they played was "Video Killed the Radio Star". It was quite fitting, that video and the whole concept of videos was absolutely fascinating. Videos were nothing new, but the strategy, the marketing of MTV was absolutely brilliant. It's a brilliant empire. It changed music in a lot of ways. Just about everyone loves music, right? Now the tv watching masses could gel in front of their boob tubes and check out new music too! What a concept! Exposure to new music, different music, all KINDS of music! It was enough to keep me glued to the tv for hours on end. The VJ's became personalities much like radio dj's - when Adam Curry was on you knew you were in for a dose of hair rock, when JJ Jackson (r.i.p.) was on, I could always expect a couple of U2 videos to be played, Martha Quinn seemed fond of bands like the Go-Go's, etc. etc. There was Headbanger's Ball, Closet Classics, Yo MTV Raps, 120 Minutes where they actually showed real alternative music videos... then later on with that AMP show. And not only could the musicians play with the idea of having an actual image to go along with the music, it gave aspiring directors (or already accomplished directors) a chance at expanding their visions and careers. While I agree that MTV is shit these days, my reasons for feeling this way is because the programming generally does not hold my interest. Or maybe I have outgrown MTV. I think MTV has lost it's focus. It's not about music anymore. I'd be happy if they stopped with the random non-music related programming (OK, I do enjoy an occasional Pimp My Ride) and actually played music videos for a change.



As far as the target market, I don't really want to pull out an age card. Maybe it's wrong of me to reduce it down to being the lowest common denominator. I show my age enough as it is and I don't have anything against kids that are exposed to music by way of MTV or any music channel for that matter. I've met people who don't like any kind of music and frankly I find that sad, to live out a life in that kind of silence. Everyone's got to start somewhere - kids gotta start somewhere - television is a type of medium of music exposure can be a positive springboard. Kids are impressionable. It is refreshing to see a 12 year old that marches to the beat of his own drum but the reality is at that age and older a kid/teenager will conform because it's the social order of things. They will have plenty of time in their adult lives to say "fuck off, who gives a rat's ass what you think." It's just a matter of getting to that point, it's a matter of simply growing up.



Anyway - there are a lot of people out there Jeanie that are just as in love with music as you are, it's true. It may not seem like it but I saw them when I worked in the record store for all those years. There are a ton of people that are carried away by the music, inspired by music, some people whose lives revolve around music, people that love music so much they are willing to work at the piss end of the music industry in a record store making shit wages. ;)

There's two type of people who make music. There's the people who make music for "music", and there's the people who make music for money. The people who make music for money, strive to be flamboyant, sexy, and or taboo so that the public recognize them. Meanwhile, the people who make music for music, work on challenging themselves and the history of music, rather then just appeasing the public.



Then, as said before, "Brainwashing" takes place. Corporations take a product (music), witch they want you to make you think you need (wich you really dont), and then influence it to you by having someone popular, admirable, sexy, and or dangerous, feed the product to you to make you like it more or to think its good and cool. Typically, the product, is cheaply made music (to be produced, only to make a profit). Thus, cuing for the people who make "music for money". Sometimes, these Corporations get lucky and get some good, and memerable tunes from their "pop" artists, but generally it's all crap (And thats fact, not just my opinion.)



Sorry if some of that doesnt make sense. I want to add more, but i lost my train of thought :?



But, yeah basically Corporations and greed is what gives "todays" music its bad rap, if people wouldnt be so damn concerned about having so much money or popularity and what not, we would be in a better place.

Jeanie, you should watch BET after 12. Now that's my kind of music and moves me ways i can't describe here coz i think it would be unappropriate.



here's my 2 cents,

Some people are really genre specific, they will listen to only what they have been listening to for years and are not willing to change the way they listen to music. that's fine.Some people have this stereotype that if you grew up in ghetto rap/hiphop/r&b is all you are gonna listen to...if you grew up in suburb pop,rock/alternative...but that's complete bullshit. Anyone with an ear for good music is going to explore....it comes down to personality and individual imagination.



I agree with Bosco's points about there being 2 kinds of people making music. 1. For money, generally aren't that creative and are basically selling themselves instead of the music.2 For art, creating something because they want to and are passionate about it.

you could easily tell by listening a record as to how 'real' it is ?



Music itself serves a lot of different purpose for different people. I won't go into details because it will be stating the obvious. For me though its fun time and i can channel my energy into creating something that people might enjoy and feel the same way as me...it's the best feeling in the world...no doubt about it.. :) hope i didn't sound redundant.

chemicalreaction Escribi�:

Jeanie, you should watch BET after 12. Now that's my kind of music and moves me ways i can't describe here coz i think it would be unappropriate.

bwahhhhhhh X-D

whirlygirl Escribi�:

I think MTV has lost it's focus. It's not about music anymore.

Game. Set. Match.



Music is commodatized enough as it is, but it really seems that it is simply becoming part of a larger "entertainment" package.



Can you think of a singer than isn't also an actor, a dancer, a comedian, a stripper, etc.?



........ However ..........



Music isn't going anywhere and there is still tons of incredible music out there. Thanks to the Internet it is possible to track down more amazing music than at any time in history. This IS the best age to be a fan of music. Period.



Perhaps it's not a time where there are many "movements" in music, or perhaps indeed in culture overall, to feel proud to be a member of; yet music itself is rather vital and thriving.



The fact that popular contemporary music seems subservient, or at least inextricably linked, to a larger package that is mostly about image may prove to be transient or it may be lasting. The important thing, however, is that music continues. And it will. It's part of the human legacy.

8O :D



I reaaaally like the conversation we have going on here.

Very intresting to read all your ideas.

However , it's 1.50 am. I will reply tomorrow ;-)

You guys seems to be forgetting that the chemical brothers are popular music.

Of there was ever any doubt in my mind, PTB removed it.

But is being popular always a bad thing, FlamingDead? If a song or album gets attention, do the songs not remain the same? The Chems are not above reproach - music is subversive - but is critical acclaim for any artist whether it be from the media or the masses, always a bad thing?



I wouldn't care if everyone and their grandmother woke up tomorrow and decided they were Chemical Brothers' fans. OK, that's pushing it. This place would get a little crowded.

I'd say flamebait because I saw nobody acting like the chems wouldn't be pop. That doesn't of course prevent anyone to enjoy chemical music in some other way than what might usually be associated to pop listeners.



If you just read through the thread a bit too fast the discussion here is more like "musical expression in our pop culture" than like "l0l pop is for n00bz i only lizten to alternative underground awesomeness".



I think PTB is a good counter-example to this:

Bosco Escribi�:

There's the people who make music for "music", and there's the people who make music for money.

I view PTB as the end result from people who make music for "music" but also carefully calculate the product's market potential.

Ultimately, you want to reach the broadest audience possible, to touch as many people's hearts and minds as possible.



That's what you live and work for.

soundertow Escribi�:

I view PTB as the end result from people who make music for "music" but also carefully calculate the product's market potential.

Quite true. That's why 'Swiper' wasn't on the album. :D

whirlygirl Escribi�:

But is being popular always a bad thing, FlamingDead? If a song or album gets attention, do the songs not remain the same? The Chems are not above reproach - music is subversive - but is critical acclaim for any artist whether it be from the media or the masses, always a bad thing?



I wouldn't care if everyone and their grandmother woke up tomorrow and decided they were Chemical Brothers' fans. OK, that's pushing it. This place would get a little crowded.

I'm most ceratinly not saying being popular is a bad thing. If you're asking that to anyone, it should be Jeanie.