Well, I've been looking the last week or so for an inexpensive hardware toy for making music and have come across a number of grooveboxes that look to do the trick. Problem is that they all have features I like and all lack features that the others have.



Hoping the people here (whether they are really knowledgable or not) can help me make a decision.



Here's the rundown on my pros and cons:



Yamaha DX-200: Classic DX-7 sounds, great amount of tweakability. Unfortunately, only 1 synth track and 3 rhythm tracks, as well as only a 16-step sequencer.



Yamaha AN-200: Great analogue-ish sounds, great amount of tweakability. Same cons as the DX-200.



Korg Electribe EA-1: Analogue (emulating) synth-only groovebox. Not quite as much tweakability as the Yamahas (notably no LFO), but the sequencer is 64-step and much more intuitive (or so I hear).



Korg Electribe ER-1: Rhythm-only groovebox. Basically same deal as EA-1, but a drum machine rather than a synth.



[If choosing the EA-1 I would also get the ER-1, and vice versa. I want to have both synth and drums. Unfortunately, this will double the cost.]



Korg Electribe EM-1: Combines synth (2-tracks) and drums (8-tracks). No audio input, unlike the EA-1 and ER-1 (basically I can't fuck around with my friend's guitar sounds). 64-step intuitive sequencer, etc.



--

Basically, I've narrowed it down to either the EM-1 or the EA-1 + ER-1 together, but thought I'd mention the others as well.



Sorry for the long post, but I need a hand deciding. (Oh, and prices for each of the units is roughly the same: ~$200 US on eBay)

Speaking as a gearhead hobbyist, the best thing gear you should get first is a sampler, and not just a strict synth. It doesn't have to be anything major in price like an E-Mu SP-1200 or an Akai S2000. Those are some major samplers. But something like an Akai S900. Learn some sampler use, because with a sampler you can just sample anything and filter the shit out of it and create something totally different. Like sampling funk record drum breaks and cutting them up and adding a filter to them.



If you have a computer, try to get demos to a few audio programs. Try out Acid Pro, Fruity Loops, or Ableton. Just through yourself into those and get kind of a feel for what those programs do. Because if you can make a simplistic track with something like that, you can do anything with outboard gear. But don't just buy gear. I know that seems contradictory to what I just said. Here's what I mean, actually. Try out a few of the programs. See what the demos and do and get an understanding of all that stuff. Then if your willing to go through all that stuff without going crazy, then go for gear. And if you go for gear, the best piece of gear to get is a sampler IMO.



You know, don't be like the guy who wants to learn how to play guitar, mortgages his house to buy a Gibson Flying V, and give up just because you can't make a barre chord.

I don't entirely agree with Turbo Nutter, as I don't have a sampler and I'm doing just fine. I've got an EA-1, and a DX-200. The EA-1 was my first synth, and I love it to bits! It's not what I call a "fully-fledged" virtual analogue synth, as it has no LFO and minimal envelope control (filter decay, and depth). It's a great synth to learn on, and dead easy to get results. The only problem is the sound is a bit limited. What you make in 5 minutes of knob-twiddling is about as far as you'll get.



The DX-200 on the other hand is a synth I've had for about 2 years, and I still haven't mastered it. Most sounds that come out of it are not usable - they're bleepy, screamy, industrial-type sounds. It takes time to get a friendly sound out of it, but that just means it's got more depth of sound palette. The 16-step sequencer does suck, it's too limited really. Oh, and the drums are total crap on it - so cheesy and plain rubbish you'll never use them in a track. If you can get a DX-200 and an ER-1, that would be sweet! Or better, instead of an ER-1, try to get an ES-1, you can sample real drum sounds then. I believe the ER-1 isn't the most realistic sounding drum machine out there.

Thanks for the input guys, first off.



I'm also considering the ES-1, but I'm not too concerned about sampling real drums, as I'm interested primarily in electronic dance music anyway. From what I've read on the ER-1, it does "real" drums crappy, but does an excellent job on electronic stuff.



The DX-200, as you said chemicalfan, definetly seems to have the most to offer in terms of sound creation, but I really would like something with a decent sequencer. I missed out on a DX-200 on eBay today that went for less than $200 Canadian, but I was debating over what I really wanted too much to bid on it. Oh well, there's no REAL rush; I'll wait for the right deal.



I'm completely new to this sort of thing and want, essentially, something simple enough that I can do -something- with it the first day I own it, but capable enough that I'm not bored a couple weeks later.



As I know virtually nothing about MIDI and synching up units, can you tell me what the pros and cons would be if I hooked up an ER-1 to a DX-200 vs. an ER-1 to a EA-1?



And Turbonutter, I think I will d/l a demo or two this week if I get the chance. I'm willing to put in the effort to learn this sort of thing, but I think I would benefit from having a rather intutive unit as a starting point. If I need to purchase something more complex down the line, I will, but I want something that will get me into the field and keep me occupied for a year or so while I learn and mess with things.



Thanks again, for the advice.

Oh, forgot to ask, and how much would I be missing out on if, say, I went with an all-in-one unit like the EM-1 as opposed to separate units (EA-1 AND ER-1)?

The EM-1 looks good, it's got more effects than the stand-alone units, so go for one if you can find one.



As far as different units go, that's the beauty of MIDI! You can connect anything you want to anything else, and you can use one sequencer to play another synth! So even though the sequencer isn't great on the DX-200, you can use the Electribe to sequence it.



As far as software goes, I use ACID (which I bought for �20 a few years ago), but I've used FL Studio (very good, but it's $100 I believe), Reason (seems a lot of money for what you get), Ableton Live (can't get my head round that one, seems over complicated. I still use it for tidying up loops though, in much the same way one would use a sampler!). I've used Tracktion as well (that's free from www.mackie.com), not had much experience with it, but it seems pretty good. Just haven't had the time to learn it properly

Long ago, I realized this....



It isn't what gear you have or don't have, but your creativity with what gear you DO have. Liam Howlett won competitions by programing with only one synth. More gear does not ever mean better music. You could use one piece of gear learned in and out completely and make just about anything limited only by your patience and creativity.



Keep going.



-Peter

Personally i would get the Korg Microkorg, it is so sexy the sounds it can make are so sweet and it can be used as a midi, so you may aswell get reason with it.

I'm quite worried about the sequencing aspect of the gear discussed being left out.



Think about it : it is great to have a machine making great sounds, but you have to sequence it properly to get a decent tune, and, IMHO, the pattern based sequencing of Electribe and yamaha grooveboxes is not the best thing.



Ad far as hardware sequencing goes, Akai MPCs are a very good choice. yes, they are samplers, but you can control aything you want with them. you might alos wana look into Roland MC909 or the Yamaha big groovebox whose name I don't remember, but which is very similar (IE built in synths and drums, AND sampling)



if you really do not care about sampling, go for an old Roland MC505 or 303, you can find some cheap ones used, but, hey, it is pattern sequencing, and the lack of sampling capabilities is a serious drawback (at least to me) if you're planning to use it alone...

I've got a good point about that:

Can you get a Akai MPC or a Roland MC505 for �100? No.



You might get a Roland MC303 for that, but if the sequencer is anything like the D2 I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. Plus, the MC303 is a sample-based synth, not a virtual analogue. That means, you take an existing sound, and modify it - you don't start from scratch.



Most people use their computers for sequencing anyway, MIDI sequencers are two-a-penny at the moment, you can't move for the free ones out there. It's a lot easier to click a mouse then it is to mess around with pressing buttons, but it's nice to be able to sequence patterns away from the screen. You can still put the songs together using the computer - that's the way I work.

Price is the key issue here as I haven't paid my tuition for this semester yet. I realize I'm going to have to get a lower end unit right now if I want anything. This is why the Electribes stood out. Among the units available that do most of what I'm looking for in a noobie-unit, it has the best combo of features and price. I simply can't afford the MC-909 or the RM1x.



As for the sequencers in the units, that is precisely why the Electribes are standing out to me. I've read nothing but good reviews about their sequencers, especially in comparison to the Yamaha grooveboxes.



I originally considered the MC-303, but everything I read told me to stay away like the plague.



Sampling would be nice, but it's something I'll look for in the future. Right now I just want something affordable, accessible, and that will start a new addiction... heh.

chemicalfan Escribi�:

I've got a good point about that:

Can you get a Akai MPC or a Roland MC505 for �100? No.

Well, I don't know about the prices in the UK, but an Electribe machine down here in France is about �300 anyway, and that's not far awy from the prices of used 303 or (maybe) 505.



I agree the MPCs are much more expensive, but it is a totally different approach, and in the long run (if you expand your studio) it will turn out more useful thant a groovebox, I think.



but again, those are quite different machines

You might get a Roland MC303 for that, but if the sequencer is anything like the D2 I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. Plus, the MC303 is a sample-based synth, not a virtual analogue. That means, you take an existing sound, and modify it - you don't start from scratch.

Yeah, that's true. you never come near to the rawness and fatness of the Analog modelisation, let alone the real analog thing.



But on the other hand, there's quite a big pack of sounds in those boxes, and it is always useful to swhitch the drumkit to semothing more "realistic" (or so called by Roland engineers, mouahahaha), or feeling like adding a "piano" or a "flute" sound....



plus you can pile up to 4 sampled waveforms in the synth engine, and, with effects and filters, you can manage to get something interesting.



and you've got seven tracks.



Mind you, if tomorrow I was back in 2000 and had the choice between a Roland MC and Electribe machines I would go for the electribes, both being pattern based, the Korg Electribe seem fresher and funnier, but it is not as old as the MCs...



It all depends on the music you are playing, but grooveboxes doesn't really suit me. Sampling is a lot more fun.

Most people use their computers for sequencing anyway, MIDI sequencers are two-a-penny at the moment, you can't move for the free ones out there. It's a lot easier to click a mouse then it is to mess around with pressing buttons, but it's nice to be able to sequence patterns away from the screen. You can still put the songs together using the computer - that's the way I work.

I couldn't agree more. I first bought an MPC, and now with Logic I rediscover sequencing and writing. however it was probably a good thing for me to learn it "the hard way" and I wouldn't bring a computer on stage.



I totally agree with you. If the guy can sequence everything from a software sequencer, then go for the Electribes or Yamaha.

I'd say the Electribe and the Yamaha sequencers are about the same in ease of use, but as said before, you get 4 bars in the Electribes and only 1 in the Yamaha.



You still need sequencing software on your computer to layer the recorded loops from the grooveboxes into complete songs. Tracktion is pretty cool for that, grab it while it's still free!

oh, and I've never tried the EM 1, but sounds more appealing than any MC505. I've hear the new version of electribe boxes, with the mini tube amp, are wicked.

You should get a Roland TB-303. Thier really neat. I don't think many people have used them for music much... You could make a completely new genre with one of those! They make these great little squelchy noises. If you got one of those I don't think you'd ever regret it. =)

Now THAT's an idea. Bring on the time machine, we're gonna be famous!!! :-D