Probass, on 18 April 2010 - 12:37 AM, said:

Here is my source on this matter:
"The problem with the argument [that homosexuality is morally wrong as stated in Leviticus 18:22] is that, if we look at other things the bible says, it does not appear to be a reliable guide to morality. Leviticus condemns homosexuality, but it also forbids eating sheep's fat (7:23), letting a woman into a church who has recently given birth (12:2-5), and seeing your uncle naked (18:14. 26)... and it says we may purchase slaves from nearby nations (25:44). In Exodus, it even says that it's okay to beat your slaves, so long as they don't die (21:20-21)."
-The Elements of Moral Philosophy by Rachels & Rachels

It is said much more clearly than I had put it.

I'll try to write this as neutrally as possible: There's nothing unnatural about love existing between two people, and the expression of that love in intimate ways is biologically ingrained in all of us.

The idea of two people of the same gender engaging in sexual acts may be repulsive to some, but really, it's no more repulsive than two people of different genders engaging in the same sexual act. And yes, there is heavy overlap between sexual acts of same-sex couples and heterosexual couples.

And Profunk brought up a good point: homosexuality exists in other species. According to the all-knowing Wikipedia, there are 1500 different species in which homosexual behavior has been recorded.

That's all I've got for now.

WhiteNoise, on 17 April 2010 - 07:57 PM, said:

i feel sorry for you, man. it's like they were born with some kind of disease or something, wth?

it's not because im gay but i live here in austria, where hitler was born and developing his ideas of normal and unnormal and that's why i'm a little senisble about such positions. hitler also did not kill people at first...but his ideas where growing and growing (and also the death talls)

@whirly: you re so right! it begins with categorizing things in normal and unnormal.
@probass: forum phd. well done!

whirlygirl, on 17 April 2010 - 08:18 PM, said:

Wow, whirly, I love you for that statement! [cliché modus on] And the fact it is from an Amercian [cliché modus off] makes me sure the world will be better one day!
No, honestly:

Live and let live, people!

haha... my outing on chembros forum based on weak english skills cause i'm not. but if would probably feel as normal as an straight guy...

Being neither gay nor straight, it's interesting to see how people act on their given sexual identities from a slightly outside perspective. Although, I did come across one sexual identity which seemed to fit me best, I suppose: "heteroflexible."

You have gotten me thinking, Profunk, and I will justify my opinions best I can.
First off, I'd like to appologize for my last post. In retrospect, yes, it was very hateful and
idiotic of me to say those things, and I really wasn't thinking at all when I clicked that post
button. Big sorry's all around.

Ok, here I go:

Quote

So what you are saying, is that if lower animals have gay sex, then it must be perfectly natrual
for humans to do so, correct? That isn't a justification, really. Pretend a man decides to spend
his life in a tree consuming nuts for the rest of his life. When asked why, he replies:

"Squirrels do this all the time. They live like that. It's perfectly normal for me to do this,
right?"

Or pretend a woman wants to spend her life swimming in the ocean, drinking nothing but seawater,
saying "Heck, fish live like this! I can do this too!" Doesn't make sense for an person to
emulate an animal and think that it's normal, does it? What might be natrual for another species,
such as how dogs sniff each other's butts in greeting, would be totally unnatural for a human.
Would it be at all okay for us to drop our pants, bend over and take a whiff every time we see
each other? No. The definition of natrual is something both different and exclusive to all
beings of Earth, and one definition should not be applied to anothers and be called natural.

Quote

To do so, I'll have to define natural. Since I can now refer specifically to people, natural
would be (and I don't mean to be sounding too crude or anything), a man's genitals goin into a
woman's genitals. If you can say with a perfectly straight face that this is not what we were
designed to do, then you're just trying to disagree with me. But just think about it. That makes
sense. So when we engage in other activities (anal, toys or otherwise), this is something we were
not designed to do. It's soemthing of our own desires and feelings, and thus is something we were
never created for. Like cooking, for example. You've got your recipe for cinnamon rolls layed
out in fornt of you. But you really like chocolate. I mean, really like it. So you add some
chocolate syrup to the mix. You enjoy gum, and carrots too, so you throw some of those in as
well. Suddenly it's not a cinnamon roll anymore. Suddenly it's become something it was never
meant to be, something unnatural. It's the same with gay sex, if you've got to bring other things
into the equation to make it work, it becomes unnatural. So, yes, being gay is unnatural, because
we were never originally created to be gay. I hope that makes sense.

Quote

As for what I dislike about gays, it's the physical part of it. Some of the other behavioral
things bug me, but over all it's the physical part of it. If one of my close friends came out of
the closet unexpectedly, I wouldn't frown on and hate for the rest of my life. I'm not the type
of guy from the Fatboy Slim "Don't Let The Man Get You Down" music video. As long as they're not
overtly gay in their actions, or try to hit on me or anything, I'd be cool with it. So yes, to
answer your question, if a gay were to abstain, at least in public, I'd be okay with him. I'd
disagree with what he was doing but I wouldn't go hating them for it.

Quote

Who's to say? You are. I am. Everyone is. What you may believe is moral may be enirely
different from what I believe is moral. And what other people think is moral may totally
contradict what you believe in. So, since one's belief's are unique, it seems we must all make
judgements based on our own moral idea, because there is, and may never be, one universal moral
law that everyone will agree with. What happens so much nowadays is that one's definition of
moral and immoral ends up being crammed down other people'a throats. I hate peanut butter. It
makes me gag. You people probably like peanut butter. But should you force me to eat it and like
it? No. Same with homosexuality. I don't like it. But should I be forced to accept it and like
it because so many other people do? What I'm saying is that there is a sense of moral relativism
in us all, and we should not force other people to comply to our own limits or lack there of.
Just like what you said:

Quote

I don't like it when gays try to make me accept that what they're doing is right (not that I'm
insinuating that evey one who disagrees with me is gay), and I'm sure they don't like it when we
tell them it's wrong. We all just lack the ability to agree to disagree. Says Czar:

Quote

So, before anyone calls me a hypocrite, I want to say that I was, and still am, just stating and
defending what I stand for. I am not trying to convince anyone of anything (although if I do
happen to influence any of you, that would be neat). Anyway:

Quote

My moral relativity is based on the Bible's teachings, not its specifics concering the treatment
of slaves or the church attendence of women who recently gave birth. There are parts of the bible
that do not make sense and contradict other parts. But just because certain parts do not make
sense doesn't mean the rest of the bible isn't reliable. The overal moral techings of the bible
are what I believe we should base our lives on. Again, not trying to make you believe what I do,
only stating what I believe. Your morals can be based on whatever you want them to be. I want
mine to be based on the lord.

Whirlygirl, I understand you must find me pretty naive when it comes to understanding the world.
But just because I am only 13 years old and have only lived in one other place in the world (which
happens to be middle of nowhere, MI), it doesn't mean I can't have an opinion contrary to most
people around me. I have firm values and beliefs and when someone insults them or challenges
them, I will defend them. And I know I'm speaking out of my you-know-what at this point, I have
little to no real world experence with what I'm talking about (man, I haven't even gotten to
second base yet), but I think I'm mature and smart enough to know what I believe in and say it,
too. And who knows? Maybe my outlook will change when I'm older. But right now, this is how I
feel, and I hope I don't change anytime soon.

I hope that was adequate enough for you, Profunk, if you disagree with me on anything, I'd like to
hear it.

And yes, I know Tom & Ed are all about "Love Is All', but I don't think it would be at all wise of
me to base my moral attitude on what my favorite band's is, now matter how awesome their music is.
Tom and Ed are not gods. Music gods, perhaps, but not gods.

(I think that gave me the record for 'Longest Response On The New Chems Forum'.)

Well said, Whitenoise.
You have a strong constitution, and that is admirable. I can't really expound more than I already have without discussing moral theories such as natural law theory or objectivism, but it would be quite dull. So instead I will write a little bit about a personal anecdote.

I met an openly gay person for the first time when I was 15 or 16. I suppose I was a bit dense back then, because I didn't realize what his sexual preference was until I started to speak with him. But first, a bit of back story: my parents took me to a movie screening in a college auditorium and, if my memory serves correctly, the two main characters were lesbians. There were also posters on stands for The L-Word, which I thought meant "Love" at the time, considering that that show was in its first season, and I had not heard of it. I also noticed that the audience seemed somehow "different." Anyways, after the movie, I shook hands with one of the men in charge and had a conversation about how I had heard about the event that they put on. At this point, realizing that his accent was unusual and that he was wearing a mesh tanktop (I wish it were something else, but unfortunately it was quite stereotypical), I finally realized he was gay. I felt creeped out. In retrospect, such a feeling seems similar to cooties, which is rather silly. Anyways, I couldn't really explain why I was creeped out, and now, of course, I do not feel that way, because one of my better friends in high school was gay.
I suppose the point is, no amount of reasoning at that point in my life could have made me feel comfortable around homosexuals. However, I think opinions of a certain group of people change if one has the opportunity to get to know them, however cliche that may sound.

Mostly @ Whitenoise:

Firstly, and partially at ProFunk, I disagree with the assumption that species aside from human beings are "lower."

Secondly, there are many, many more similarities between human and animal behavior that you exclude in making your hypothesis that human beings solely justify their behavior based on animals. People make the same justification for murder all the time using the "natural world" argument and your religion seems to have no problem with this, despite the teachings of Jesus.

Thirdly, the design in human anatomy which you claim as normal sexual behavior is one which fits with sexual reproduction, but it does not fit with sexual drive and desire. Our sexuality is not a choice, it is by design--this is something you've agreed with, and further stated, for some reason, that you pity these individuals which end up designed in such a way. I'm not certain that it makes a difference who we desire; any instance of individuals which find true love and a compatible life partner do not need pity--I'd argue, on the contrary, that it is cause for celebration.

Fourthly, there would be no issue with your beliefs in morality and differences in morality if these differences did not affect the legislation of laws, adoption of policy of institutions, and inevitably equal rights for human beings. The love that you feel for your parents is the same love that a child can feel for his or her adoptive parents, who may in fact be same-sex partners. Can you present me with a reason why your difference in morality should prohibit a child from spending the last hours of his or her parents life by their side?

Fifthly, the belief that "Love Is All" does not come from Tom & Ed. This belief comes from a number of different religions, including your own. Jesus Christ's teachings were all about compassion and love, understanding, acceptance and tolerance. The parables of him include washing a prostitute's feet and healing and clothing a leper. The message in the music of the Chemical Brothers parallels that of your own beliefs, so it would, indeed, make sense for you to follow it.

I'm glad that you allow that your mind could change on this subject.

MadPooter, on 19 April 2010 - 08:23 AM, said:

This is something that I had meant to discuss. Because the "silly" things in the bible (the slavery instance, etc) can be ignored through interpretation--but, of course, not the passages condemning homosexuality, a fortiori the translation of which from Latin and Greek may be inaccurate--Jesus' teachings about compassion and acceptance may also be put up to interpretation. But once interpretation of this sort is allowed, does the Bible teach one certain beliefs and is it authoritative to his/her action, or is the Bible, through interpretation of this kind, molded into merely a justification for one's own subjective beliefs? The latter does not seem to be what the Bible ought to do.

I hate this topic. I now fear for our queer friend Iguanapunk on this forum.

WhiteNoise, on 16 April 2010 - 09:16 PM, said:

No, what I meant is that we shouldn't take this video seriously I like Will Ferrel.

I think anyone who knows so many arguments against homosexuality at such a young age must be really, really tormented by forbidden longings that his fuckwit, right-wing, hoosier, christian retard parents have told him will send him to hell.

just my opinion, of course.

whitenoise, it's cool if you're gay, we will still accept you.

I think whitenoise has the right to believe whatever he wants, i don't think he is trying to convert us to gay-nazi's, and i know some 13 year olds that are smart as hell, but i really hope, whitenoise, that once you get older, you will realize that being gay is perfectly normal.

You grew up learning about gay-sexuality as something thats 'wrong', i grew up not even learning about gay-sexuality...where i'm from it just is normal. Parents don't have to explain to their kids what gay-sexuality is as it's so normal in the society we live in.

I just can not imagine, not even for 1%, that i would have any dislike against gays. I dont even think about it. For me a gay person is the same as a straight person, or a black person, or an asian person, or whatever. We are all human beings, and if god is so amazing as a lot of believers claim he is, he also has love for gays.

Love to everybody!

@ Whitenoise: Does your disliking include lesbians too?

Human diversity makes tolerance more than a virtue; it makes it a requirement for survival
- Rene Dubos

whitenoise -

You really need to drop the morality through religion angle. Seriously, just stop it. As I mentioned early on, Christianity, as well as all of the major religions, are based on tolerance and loving for all living creatures. If you don't get that basic message from your religious practice you should stop, because you're doing it wrong. (It's not just you; many don't understand the concepts behind the words of their religions.)

That being said, it takes a lot of courage to offer a dissenting or unpopular opinion in a group of like minds, and even more so to thoughtfully defend it under fire as you have.

A lot of people have cited your age as a factor for your uninformed opinions; understand that uninformed opinions manifest as ignorance as we get older, and I think everyone is trying to offer you concepts that are beyond your life experience to this point. In addition to age, there are a lot of factors that help us form our opinions and grow into the people that we are: influence from family and friends, geography, education, the media and entertainment outlets, and personal experiences. It is up to each and every one of us to weigh these factors equally and make informed decisions.

Perhaps the next time a gay person makes you feel uncomfortable, you can remember this experience. The group respected you and tried to understand you as a person with feelings despite your showing a different behavior than what is "normal" for us, and everyone likes you just the same.

This truly is one of the best brotherhoods you will ever find; hopefully this week you will gain something positive from it.

whitenoise, you need some more tino in your life:



then everything will make sense :thumbup:

Someone wanna photoshop a jar of peanut butter in his hand?

Whitenoise, you're really insightful for you age, regardless of opinion. But once you get your knowledge from more than oncesource, you'll probably find life is more complex and strong opinions on such matters live in narrow-minded bubbles listening only to opinion that gratified there's. Once you meet gay people you'll realize they aren't hegemonic of their beliefs like Mormons. They're perfectly normal people, you've probably talked to a few and not known it. I don't know what you've been taught, but it sounds like a few things and especially the fine details of the sex, seems a bit over kill. A lot of homophobic people think about their sex than most homosexuals do.

I take back my nomination for most retarded thread and would instead vote it for a lifetime achievement award. If anyone else ever creates a topic that dives into politics or morals, I might have to assult you with my "most chill forum member trophy"

Csar, on 19 April 2010 - 07:39 PM, said:

I know he's just 13...but..aren't lesbians every mans dream?